New SGN CEO Randy Breen on Mobile Development and the Future of Social Gaming

Last week, we talked to the chief operating officer of iPhone game publisher SGN, Randy Breen, for our review of the company’s two big games, the flight simulators F.A.S.T. and Skies of Glory. Two days later, he was promoted to CEO, while founder Shervin Pishevar moved to the role of chairman — a transition Breen says was planned since he was hired.

Hoping to get some new insight into SGN’s future, we cornered Breen for a longer interview. While the company isn’t pre-announcing the new titles it’s working on, there was plenty of other ground to cover — Breen’s background with gaming giant EA, the similarities between social games and World of Warcraft, Facebook’s successes, and the future of SGN.

Be warned that the interview runs a bit long, so we’ve hidden part; just click through below for the rest.

Inside Social Games: What’s your reaction to Google’s new Nexus smartphone and the impending Apple tablet? How would larger screens impact mobile game development?

Randy Breen: The Nexus One is missing a lot of things that Apple does well, like screen rotation based on the accelerometer. Still, it’s interesting. SGN won’t develop for all smartphones as a category, but web-enabled devices will always be of interest. They mean our products can be built differently. The console version has to be built like a movie, a three year endeavor for the end product. A tablet would make our games bigger and more expensive, but that’s inevitable at some level.

ISG: You mentioned that most of the development for SGN’s flight sims was done externally, by Revo. Will you stick with that model in the future?

RB: EA in the early days was modeled after the record companies, so everything was external; over time they became almost the exact opposite. I happen to think that it’s a good model to be able to do both internal and external development.

We’re looking for small developers that want a publisher to help them get to market. We have expertise with certain kinds of problems, we can co-develop, we can continue to support the product beyond their interest. I think it allows smaller teams who may not have the visibility they need to get into the Apple app market, the PR and marketing, achieve things they wouldn’t be able to otherwise. As the market expands, the number of things the developer has to be responsible for increases in complexity and scope, so over time you’ll see more of these relationships.

There are a lot of people in the iPhone and social gaming markets that came out of the console market. They see these same trends. All of us are looking back to what’s happened in the past and looking to apply it in the future. If you’re looking at the products in the charts, in some cases they’re brands of bigger companies, but they’re often like products that have been successful elsewhere.

ISG: Console game makers, following the PC market, are experimenting with user-generated content in games. Does SGN have any plans in that direction?

RB: It’s a challenge to figure out how to do that in a way that’s acceptable to Apple’s standards, but it’s an interesting approach. I’m interested in things the community can contribute that are simple, that more people can participate in. Multi-player games effectively introduce the concept on the fly. Instead of an AI character controlled by the device, another object, vehicle or character is controlled by the player. The interactions are, in effect, crowd-sourcing.

The best example is Counterstrike. People still play it online. I think what’s interesting is that the levels are simple, the paths through the world are simple, but they’re organized in a way that drive people psychologically to take advantage of those paths. Focusing on that level layout for instance, instead of what I can make a character do, creates a lot more possibility for the people playing in it.

ISG: What’s the equivalent to World of Warcraft, MMO-style gaming addiction in simple mobile or social games?

RB: The addiction is directly related to the questing systems: the brain activity around discovering what you need to do, going out and achieving that goal, getting a reward, then finding what you need to do next. It’s a triangle of behavior that’s ingrained in all of us for very basic things, searching for food for instance. The community and the links you create keep you engaged and drive the behavior.

One of the more insightful things I’ve heard came from a friend a few years ago. He said that in real life, you may know the things you need to do but you don’t know how to do them. The hardest things in life are complex. With an MMO, generally, you can achieve the highest ranks in the game by just going through the steps and paths in the game. It takes time and requires dedication at some level, but it leads to an absolute outcome. It’s more achievable than real life, and you can do fantastic things. When you strip out the front end from an RPG, you’re left with dice rolls. You could break it down in a spreadsheet.

That’s what a game like Mafia Wars [on Facebook] essentially creates. The interesting thing is that you’re still motivated by that simple triangle I described. Push button, get thing, go do another thing, get award, go on to the next thing. You see people that may never have played RPGs getting into the game mechanics. They may not understand what’s going on, but they get some fulfillment out of leveling.

The thing I think is funniest is that I also know plenty of hardcore gamers that are leveling in these simple games. It works for them too. It worked for me. I got into this routine, where I’d get up and think, “I better push the button to exploit the timer and progress as fast as they allow me to.” It’s that infrequent but routine use that’s interesting, and that’s what’s powerful about social experiences in terms of their game mechanics. You can build them into the routine of your life in a way you can’t with these more hardcore experiences.

ISG: You’ve suggested that there are a lot of similarities between today’s social gaming companies and the early days of PC gaming. What are the differences?

RB: Connectivity is the big one. A friend of mine developed the early Chuck Yaeger simulators. I was pleased to hand SOG to him, and he was playing it on an iPhone, with equivalent visual quality to what he produced on the PC years ago. There’s a bit of a mix of new and old in that. A lot of the ideas were established in the 80s, but they didn’t have the ability to achieve the same things. Some of these new games are clearly throwbacks, and some were pieces missing at the time that would have allowed them to do what we’re doing now.

Downloadable content is a fundamentally different business from releases. It doesn’t work in the console space because of retail. Now there are avenues for it on the back-end of retail releases, on the Xbox network or whatever. But that presumes people have a connection and are comfortable spending their money that way. With the iPhone everyone’s connected, and the pieces we’re selling are so much less expensive and smaller.

I honestly think that a lot of the issues people have with downloadable content is a lack of understanding. People are comfortable with the packaged goods model, they’re comfortable with subscriptions. These are metaphors they’ve bought into. The packaged model has led to publishers that build sequels because they don’t take chances in the marketplace. The number of new things tried and brought to market is actually very limited. And the fact is, there’s a lot less value in a subscription for customers. How many people have a subscription they’ve forgotten about?

ISG: Let’s talk about distribution on Facebook, where Farmville has gotten more recognition than anything on the iPhone. Would you put that down to loopholes in Facebook’s ways of promoting apps?

RB: You could, but that would diminish the social aspects. There’s no question that in the right circumstances, you can reach an audience unheard of in any other media. It just demonstrates how many people are really interested in the content.

If you provide them something they have access to, there are a lot more people willing to participate than the game market has served over the years. You go to the web browser and find Farmville, and now you have an experience with immediate access, and you discover that it’s interesting in a matter of moments. It’s that access that changes the relationship with the customer. That’s what’s unique about this part of the industry -– it’s eye-opening to realize how many people have been left out of the industry.

If you look at the iPhone where it is now, it will double over the next few years, then you add in [Google] Android. It’s not particularly hard to get to markets bigger than Facebook. What if every phone was a web enabled device with the same features as the iPhone? That audience is interested in the same sorts of experiences as they are in Facebook. Those customers tend to buy things with specific value to them. In some ways the market is more dynamic than Facebook.

ISG: Where do you see SGN going — will it become a huge company employing thousands of people? Could it someday look like EA?

RB: Part of that depends on the body of products we’re producing. I think that we set out to achieve objectives and the size of the organization falls out of that. The products can be developed in or out of house. But the fact is that over time the production quality will go up.

What’s happened with the traditional game industry is that the cost has exceeded the ability of the audience to support it. The question comes down to how long will it take for the web enabled device market to become too top heavy and constrained by the limitations it has created as it grows. It’s a long way off, but my assumption is that it has more overhead because it has the potential to reach a much wider range of people.

I aspire to have a reputation like Pixar, where the brand means something so substantial that people recognize it. They can bridge an audience. Plenty of people like harder core content and still like a Pixar film. What I’m speaking to is that there’s a perception of quality based on consistency. A strong brand is a method of convincing people that there’s value in what we’re doing. Producing products that get you that reputation is the first order of business.

ISG: You’re making free games that offer in-game purchases and micro-transactions. Is that the only revenue stream you’re looking at?

RB: I don’t think paid apps will go away altogether. The charter of this company is free apps with micro-transactions, but I don’t think that you can ignore that most of the products sold right now are pay to play. I want to believe that people will realize over time that there’s more value to the relationship by buying the product incrementally. But the reality is that if the market doesn’t develop a market, the company has to follow them. It may be that paid products are the way to go.

ISG: You mentioned that SGN is looking for other developers to work with. What are you interested in from them?

RB: I think that our focus is really on social interaction and driving socialization through activity. That can show up in a variety of categories like RPG or lifestyle products that have game elements. It could be an action game, RPG, MMO, a simulation. I’m looking at all of those categories. What’s interesting is the social interaction.

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16 Responses to “New SGN CEO Randy Breen on Mobile Development and the Future of Social Gaming”

  1. Tadhg Kelly says:

    “That’s what a game like Mafia Wars [on Facebook] essentially creates. The interesting thing is that you’re still motivated by that simple triangle I described. Push button, get thing, go do another thing, get award, go on to the next thing. You see people that may never have played RPGs getting into the game mechanics. They may not understand what’s going on, but they get some fulfillment out of leveling.”

    I think Randy makes an interesting point here in talking about the behavioural dynamics of why basic RPGs work, but what’s missing from this is an explanation for why World of Warcraft can attract millions of monthly subscribers whereas Mafia Wars and other games need to rely on constant advertising, notifications and energy mechanic tricks (basically forcing repeat visits, which ups the DAU) and can monetise maybe 5% of its users in any given month.

    The answer isn’t production values (plenty of MMOs with superior graphics to WoW have failed). It’s more that World of Warcraft provides a rich and cultural experience that players want to be a part of, and will pay for, whereas Facebook RPGs provide a thin experience that is easily forgotten and which the majority of players would never consider actually paying to play.

    I point this out because developers of Facebook games tend to think of players in purely Pavlovan stimulus-response terms. At a base level of game mechanics like slot machines, Blackjack, Poker and (now) levelling games this may be true, but not at the higher level of building a following and fans. To get there, to be a Pixar, as Randy describes it, requires a different developer mentality.

    It requires more depth of gameplay and game culture to create value that they will consistently pay for, cherish and remember. It’s going beyond the utilitarian aspect of the RPG triangle and creating a world and a gameplay that is emotionally and intellectually compelling. It’s the difference between treating players as consumers and more as members.

    The Facebook economy has rewarded the Pavlovan model because of the twin effects of novelty and Notifications, but with Notifications disappearing and the audience no longer wowed by the basic novelty, the job looking forward has to be about building cultures and membership rather than Pavlovan consumers.

    Twitter: @tadhgk

  2. Ngmoco CEO Neil Young on the iPad, Monetization, and Challenges for New Mobile Developers says:

    [...] in the future — whether on the iPhone or another platform. Note that this interview, like our last one with SGN’s Randy Breen, runs a bit long; just click through below to get the full [...]

  3. What Offers a Bigger Opportunity Than Paid Mobile Apps? - W3i Blog says:

    [...] Breen said, “The charter of this company is free apps with micro-transactions.” He predicts the mobile market will become larger than [...]

  4. carla says:

    Randy Breen has no clue. Social interaction, don’t make me laugh. Socialization through activity, Randy probably has no real idea what that means. Fluff had all that, before the dreadful changes. Now Fluff has little to none of that. Value in what they are doing??? Really, value, I don’t feel I am valued as a player, I don’t feel any value in playing something that takes three to four times as long as it did to play and now does not give me what I was used to having, Social Interaction and ease of use. And here is the real kicker, Quality based on Consistency, where is the Consistency? There is none.

    I payed real money, my friends payed real money, a lot did and were very happy to do so. Now, very few will be willing to pay for something that is so unsteady, so inconsistent, does not keep the player in mind when making changes, does not keep the reason for the games existence in mind when making changes, does not keep the core idea of the game in mind when making changes.

    I am done. Done talking, thinking and wishing.

  5. Carol says:

    I’m a fluff friends (FF) user, one of the the SGN facebook applications, I’m really worry about the future of the application, some weeks ago SGN change the user interface, UI, and a lot of problesm started. Fluf ffriends use to be a friendly and very active game, the interface was simple and clear, but now a lot of users stop to play because of the new UI, a very complicated, non friendly and ugly interface, and the real problem behind is the SGN actitude.

    “I point this out because developers of Facebook games tend to think of players in purely Pavlovan stimulus-response terms. At a base level of game mechanics like slot machines, Blackjack, Poker and (now) levelling games this may be true, but not at the higher level of building a following and fans. To get there, to be a Pixar, as Randy describes it, requires a different developer mentality.”

    I’m wondering what is he talking about, the FF users are asking mayor changes, we are waiting, send a lot of complains, reviews, we tried every possible way, but SGN don’t care, they said a lot of things, but just few of them are true.

    This applications involve a lot of things, it’s not just a game it’s a community, but SGN betrayed the users, the developers keep given promises, and they don’t change anything.

    A lot of things change in the app since SGN bought it, we have more and more gold items (gold it’s bought with real money) but as far as we had a great UI lots of users keep playing.

    “What I’m speaking to is that there’s a perception of quality based on consistency. A strong brand is a method of convincing people that there’s value in what we’re doing. Producing products that get you that reputation is the first order of business.”

    SGN it’s not a good brand, just ask to fight club users, or the warbook users, theirs apps were abandoned and deleted to one day to another, FF could have the same way.

    I’m not sure if Randy knows what’s going on in the SGN facebook applications, maybe not, but for me SGN as a brand worth nothing, they don’t care about the real usaer, they don’t care a bout the applications, they don’t care about anything but money

  6. Vana says:

    Is Randy Breen really aware of what is happening at SGN?

    His comments in this interview express exactly the opposite of what is happening with one of the most successful SGN acquisitions,(fluff)Friends.

    On April 28th a completely re-designed UI was introduced.

    Within the first week there were thousands of posts on the forum, on discussion boards, and protest pages created on fb.(One of the first groups quickly grew to almost 2,000 members.)
    The protests are only less now because players have simply quit.

    Players have left and are leaving daily because a game that was incredibly social and interactive, (more than any other game I’ve played) has now been rendered useless by the new UI.

    They are also leaving because of the manner in which SGN has responded (read: not responded) to the current crisis.

    (Emails by individuals to SGN have been ignored.
    The blog has refused to publish many of the comments submitted by players.)

    They are leaving, and taking their money with them.

    Beyond the monthly subscriptions,(I am aware of over 100 besides my own, that have been canceled,) players also had the option to buy gold with money.I’m assuming the amount of money SGN has taken in over the last few week is considerably less.

    The producer, Rudy Medrano, made one short statement,but only after many comments had been ignored and players began demanding that someone from SGN communicate with the players.(The statement was vague and impersonal, Rudy didn’t even bother to sign his
    name.)

    During this time a lone customer service specialist has been assigned the task of reading
    all posts and compiling a list for the producer.
    Because there has been no change, and because of what we have read here, we are wondering if Rudy Medrano is keeping the situation from Randy Breen. That is the only explanation we can think of given the discrepancy between the comments expressed here by Randy Breen and the current events involving SGN’s (previously)most social game.

    If Randy Breen’s attitudes have changed so dramatically over the last few months, perhaps another interview is in order.

  7. Kit says:

    A few weeks ago, (fluff)friend’s review page was spammed by a group of very upset people. “Bring back FC!” was the main plea. Other messages warned us that (fluff) would go down the same route, how SGN was thinking of leaving Facebook for iPhone games, and how SGN weren’t listening.

    As a (fluff) player, I had no idea who these people were. All I knew was that they were spamming my beloved application’s wall and that they were leaving 1 star reviews for a game they didn’t even play.

    I wasn’t the only person who was upset by these FC people’s actions. Krystal Seidel, customer service specialist for (fluff)friends, encouraged us players to report the spam messages to Facebook, because an application is not allowed to delete customer reviews themselves. So, we did.

    On the 27th of April, a few days after the FC rampage, (fluff)friends was given a new user interface. We were told how this new user interface offered us “Same fluffy goodness, better user experience”. It didn’t. In a 141 page feedback thread people reported not only huge functionality problems, the inability to play the game on netbooks and various browsers including Internet Explorer 8, but also physical problems such as headaches, migraines and eyestrain. One person had to go to the hospital after playing. One of the main reasons for people’s physical problems is the violently clashing colours of the layout. It’s also unsuitable for colorblind people, due to the use of background and font colours.

    (fluff)friends offers users subscriptions. These subscriptions, available at $10 and $25 dollars a month, offer the user gold (their premium currency), golden tickets (which can be exchanged for special pets), the ability to unlock a special golden ticket pet, customizable borders for their (fluff)book, the ability to use double the amount of items in our arts, a plushie and a redemption code for special benefits. Many users have received their plushie over a year ago now, along with their redemption code, but they’ve never received any special benefits. I asked about these redemption code benefits about a month ago, and whilst I have been assured that my question has been passed on to the relevant person, I have yet to receive a response.

    With the new user interface, the customizable page option has been significantly altered. Before, users were able to choose two different colours to customize their page. This has changed to one. Before, users could use any colour code they could find online. This has been changed to a four horrible pastels, or the standard rather bright teal.

    In the United Kingdom, companies must give their customers prior notice of any changes to the services they provide. No prior notice was given, and any questions about these changes are ignored. In Canada, apparently this is called bait and switch.

    Emails to SGN go unanswered. The (fluff)friends blog only allows through easy questions or positive feedback, other people’s comments remain stuck in moderation. Formal complaints go unnoticed. Meanwhile, Rudy Medrano, (fluff)friends producer, sings the praises of other games on his Facebook page and admits to playing D&D whilst at work. This begs the question if SGN is really working “around the clock” for (fluff)friends, as they claim.

    I started to wonder what the business with FC was all about. I soon discovered that FC means Fighter Club, another small game which had been purchased by SGN. Before the acquisition, Fighter Club was a game enjoyed by many. Like (fluff)friends, it had a very close-knit community where lasting friendships were born – it’s even the cause of some weddings! After the takeover by SGN, the game went downhill.

    Players were increasingly stuck with bad coding and lengthy loading times. Nothing was being fixed, but the players stuck with their game because they loved the community. Then came the day when Fighter Club was taken down. The distressed community was made to believe that it would come back, fixed. They waited and waited… but any emails and questions were ignored, until the day when they were told the game was closing. According to SGN, it was no longer financially viable.

    The Fighter Club community begged and pleaded, but it was no use. Some users put together a financial offer for the no longer financially viable game, just so that they could keep playing it, but this offer was turned down. Otherwise, they remained ignored, which is the reason they searched for other SGN games and found the (fluff)friends reviews page.

    A (fluff)friends, I must say, which looks frighteningly like an iPhone application these days.

    (fluff)friends and Fighter Club are not the only applications to feel the gentle touch of SGN. Another two games, War Book and Street Race, have met similar fates. Warbook, upon takeover by SGN, was assigned a programmer who didn’t know the coding language of that game. Not helpful…

    So, what is going on with SGN and Facebook? Why do they purchase Facebook applications and then run them into the ground? Why do they ignore their users to the extent that they do, and how do they get away with the questionable actions towards their paying customers?

    SGN has promised (fluff)friends some fixes, but these fixes keep being postponed, and they’re not the fixes the players want. Thousands have gathered in protest groups, begging for the old user interface.

    The paying customers on (fluff)friends are cancelling their subscriptions at a rapid pace. Just on the forum, frequented by a minority of the users, 100 people have stated they’ve cancelled their subscription. That’s a loss of 12,000 to 30,000 dollars a year – and considering the majority of (fluff)friends users are not on the forum, how much money is SGN willing to lose?

  8. CJ Darnall says:

    SGN is a clueless company. To hear Randy talk about truly interactive games makes me laugh! They bought the most interactive game on Facebook, Fighters Club, where people had real-time fights that required not only the fighters but also all of their supporters to be present at the end of the fight to determine its outcome,and drove the game completely into the ground. They were clueless on how to maintain the game or make any improvements. They allowed several severe security breaches. And despite pleas from the players for well over a year, made absolutely no attempt to remedy any of the problems that cropped up. Randy speaks somewhat condescendingly about the more simplistic applications of Facebook, but those “simplistic” applications do not have a fraction of the problems that the SGN applications have. For anyone thinking of spending real money on any SGN applications – DON’T!! When problems occur, rather than try to resolve them, SGN will scrap the application. You will lose your money and SGN will move on to make their next new app and find the next round of “suckers” to sell it to.

  9. ms. A. Bala says:

    Randy Breen has the (fluff) friends application on Facebook, and it’s clear from his fluff book that he not only doesn’t use FF, but he also doesn’t understand it. There’s a section on the fluff book – “Favorite Foods” – where users can write down the amount of energy each fluff food gives their particular fluff, so they know what best to feed their fluff to maximise energy levels for racing. Randy wrote down “BBQed anything”, LOL (there are no barbecued fluff foods!).
    ……I have spent a small fortune on items to use in fluff art. The new UI has eradicated the functionality of fluff art. I have emailed SGN, one of their developers Rudy Medrano, and protested everywhere else, including through my art.
    ……Please question Randy Breen about all of the corrections SGN needs to make to restore fluff art’s capabilities:
    http://www.fluff-friends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=546235
    http://www.fluff-friends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=548049
    ……Many thanks if you can help….A loyal, but distressed & heartbroken FF user.

  10. Ane says:

    After reading the interview with Randy Breen,it’s hard to understand why he would allow a new UI to destroy successful,lucrative, social, user friendly game.

    The problematic issues with the new UI have been detailed above. However, that is only part of the reason players/customers are leaving in large numbers.

    The producer,the developers,and/or Randy Breen himself have demonstrated an unwillingness to communicate directly with their players/customers.

    Randy Breen states that “The charter of this company is free apps with micro-transactions, but I don’t think that you can ignore that most of the products sold right now are pay to play. I want to believe that people will realize over time that there’s more value to the relationship by buying the product incrementally. But the reality is that if the market doesn’t develop a market, the company has to follow them. It may be that paid products are the way to go.”

    Both subscribers and players who bought the product incrementally are in the process of leaving or are already gone. While Randy Breen and Rudy Medrano (producer of the game) appear content to let them leave, one is left to ponder what the real agenda at SGN might be.

  11. Mary Ann Peden Coviello says:

    Others have better expressed their disappointment and distress over the treatment of (Fluff)Friends. I was a subscriber. No longer. I was a frequent user. No longer. I go there occasionally but don’t spend an hour clicking and petting and interacting. What used to take a couple of clicks now seems to take forever. And the UI is confusing and distracting to the eye.

    When I read this interview, I can tell that the handwriting is not only on the wall, it’s indelible. I’m so sad.

  12. Julie says:

    I used to love fluff (Friends). It was my guilty pleasure – simple, warm, welcoming. It emanated an atmosphere of a good-hearted fluffy community where we made sweet gestures to make each other smile in the real world. I have tried to adapt to the new IU and simply CANNOT. It is unnecessarily complicated, impersonal, and unappealing from the moment I look at the big garish display. I will not spend a cent on it until changes are made. If you want our money, SNG, give us back what we want! Why do you insist on losing profit this way?

  13. Cyn says:

    Everything stated by the above posters, I agree with. I won’t bother to reiterate most of it.
    If Fluffs (and all these online games SGN owns) are purely for profit, which seems to be the case here, it doesn’t make any sense. They are losing money by the minute here and dithering around while it flies out the door at SGN! I cannot fathom it. SGN is the worst business model I have seen in awhile. They will go under for certain if they keep up this type of activity, and non compliance with their users. Customer service? NOT.
    I drop by Fluffs briefly only on occasion now, whereas I used to play for hours with great enjoyment. I have taken my business to Pet Society, where they actually LISTEN to their players. I miss my Fluff Friends, and the game we used to have very much. Oh, and another thing, why does the FF app on MySpace still have the old (workable) UI? WHY can’t we have it too?!
    ~A disgruntled and dissappointed Fluffer

  14. biancastar says:

    I would love to say I love what SGN have done, in particular for (fluff)friends. But I don’t. They have created an unusable user interface that has made users leave the application for good. Users do not want pop ups and blue and orange colours and huge tabs.

    We used to spend my money on this application, but SGN is losing subscribers and dollars by taking it’s time and not listening carefully enough to its customers.

  15. carla says:

    Worst possible gaming company ever. I will make sure everyone I know, and beyond, is informed of this fact.

  16. What Offers a Bigger Opportunity Than Paid Mobile Apps? | SmartApp Marketing says:

    [...] CEO Randy Breen said, “The charter of this company is free apps with micro-transactions.” He predicts the mobile market will become larger than [...]

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